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	<title>Comments on: Becoming Christians</title>
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	<description>business. technology. theology. let's discuss...</description>
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		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://bretttilford.com/2010/01/becoming-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-133</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bretttilford.com/?p=69#comment-133</guid>
		<description>Hey Kyle, Thanks for stopping by!  I agree that thinking of ourselves as part of the family of God can be a powerful thing. Ultimately though those are just metaphors that are grasping at spiritual realities that are beyond our explanation.  It&#039;s a bit of a paradox to think of ourselves as being in the family and yet still becoming part of the family- but somehow that seems to be the &quot;already, not yet&quot; reality we live with.

Hey Philip, glad you chimed in. Good thoughts on justification. I agree with your working definitions there however, I wonder if instead of splitting those two things apart so much we should embrace them as more of a paradox.  I think Joel explained it well in his follow up comments.

Robbie, glad you enjoyed it!

Hey Zander, did any verses come to your mind? Ultimately, my hope was that people would be provoked to deeper reflection - not necessarily to prove that I know alot of verses that make my point beyond all reasonable doubt. I hope that makes sense. The verse I hinted at in my post was Philippians 2:12. Thanks man!

Joel, I realize the word &quot;Christian&quot; is a tricky one for many people (myself included). You&#039;ve given me alot to think about. I think you&#039;re last paragraph is getting to the heart of my post in many ways. Thank you for chiming in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Kyle, Thanks for stopping by!  I agree that thinking of ourselves as part of the family of God can be a powerful thing. Ultimately though those are just metaphors that are grasping at spiritual realities that are beyond our explanation.  It&#8217;s a bit of a paradox to think of ourselves as being in the family and yet still becoming part of the family- but somehow that seems to be the &#8220;already, not yet&#8221; reality we live with.</p>
<p>Hey Philip, glad you chimed in. Good thoughts on justification. I agree with your working definitions there however, I wonder if instead of splitting those two things apart so much we should embrace them as more of a paradox.  I think Joel explained it well in his follow up comments.</p>
<p>Robbie, glad you enjoyed it!</p>
<p>Hey Zander, did any verses come to your mind? Ultimately, my hope was that people would be provoked to deeper reflection &#8211; not necessarily to prove that I know alot of verses that make my point beyond all reasonable doubt. I hope that makes sense. The verse I hinted at in my post was Philippians 2:12. Thanks man!</p>
<p>Joel, I realize the word &#8220;Christian&#8221; is a tricky one for many people (myself included). You&#8217;ve given me alot to think about. I think you&#8217;re last paragraph is getting to the heart of my post in many ways. Thank you for chiming in.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://bretttilford.com/2010/01/becoming-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-132</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bretttilford.com/?p=69#comment-132</guid>
		<description>That should be &quot;now or coming&quot; not &quot;now are coming&quot; (in the sixth paragraph).  Argh, and the final &quot;to&quot; should be &quot;too&quot; in the eighth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That should be &#8220;now or coming&#8221; not &#8220;now are coming&#8221; (in the sixth paragraph).  Argh, and the final &#8220;to&#8221; should be &#8220;too&#8221; in the eighth.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://bretttilford.com/2010/01/becoming-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bretttilford.com/?p=69#comment-131</guid>
		<description>I like the heart of this . . . but it depends a lot on what we mean by &quot;Christian&quot; in the first place.  There are lots of other reasons I wonder whether I want to be called a &quot;Christian&quot; and, frankly, it&#039;s something I might rather be moving from than toward.

Even if we take an idealized sense of the term, it still implies the fact that we are following, emulating, like, in the image of--indeed, I&#039;d say that it already contains an implicit sense of becoming.  That is, &quot;diminutive&quot; and &quot;imperfect&quot; are built in.  

Moreover, I&#039;m of the opinion that Jesus Himself is both moving and changing (which, I guess, doesn&#039;t preclude the idea of becoming whatever Christian is; it just makes it a moving target).  

Another aspect is that both we and Jesus are singular in our creation.  I will never be anything that transcends the nature of Christ, but I would argue that I was created for a purpose that a Jesus clone would not have been suited to.  That begs the question of what exactly it means to be &quot;like Christ&quot; and whether there&#039;s maybe a subset of attributes that leaves alone that unique identity and calling.  

In any case, we will never really &lt;b&gt;be&lt;/b&gt; Christ and maybe we aren&#039;t intended to be.  And in the ways that we are meant to be--in our righteousness and in our standing before the Father--He says that we are.

And is the Kingdom itself now are coming?  If both (as I believe), then I&#039;d say so is our status as &quot;Christians.&quot;

Speaking of movement, even if we assume a static Christ, the point of the journey isn&#039;t merely that we are moving closer to an ideal, but closer in intimacy.  Am I not yet married because my love for my wife is not yet perfected?    

But, again, a lot depends on exactly what we mean by &quot;Christian.&quot;  And even if we mean a certain thing, it matters to a great extent what others mean by it to.

Speaking of definitions, let&#039;s consider &quot;saved.&quot;  As I contemplate the ontological realities, I have to conclude that I conclusively &lt;b&gt;have been&lt;/b&gt; saved (that is, it&#039;s a completed act).  That doesn&#039;t necessarily mean that I&#039;m not also continuing to be saved.  More importantly (to me, because I think that this is something most Christians miss in our reading of Scripture and in our crafting of systemic theologies), my being saved and having been saved don&#039;t negate the fact that new crises arise daily (both essential, relational, spiritual ones and less significant, incidental ones) from which I must also be saved; I have been saved, I am being saved and I will repeatedly be saved.  What&#039;s ironic is that most Evangelical theologies distinguish between salvation and justification (which are generally considered to be accomplished acts) on the one hand and sanctification (which is most often seen as an on-going process, though there are some theologies that view it as an event) on the other; the irony is that it sounds like we might agree that this is problematic and/or arbitrary even though it also sounds like we disagree about the nature of salvation.

And, of course, this raises a ton of other questions too, but I have to stop somewhere. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the heart of this . . . but it depends a lot on what we mean by &#8220;Christian&#8221; in the first place.  There are lots of other reasons I wonder whether I want to be called a &#8220;Christian&#8221; and, frankly, it&#8217;s something I might rather be moving from than toward.</p>
<p>Even if we take an idealized sense of the term, it still implies the fact that we are following, emulating, like, in the image of&#8211;indeed, I&#8217;d say that it already contains an implicit sense of becoming.  That is, &#8220;diminutive&#8221; and &#8220;imperfect&#8221; are built in.  </p>
<p>Moreover, I&#8217;m of the opinion that Jesus Himself is both moving and changing (which, I guess, doesn&#8217;t preclude the idea of becoming whatever Christian is; it just makes it a moving target).  </p>
<p>Another aspect is that both we and Jesus are singular in our creation.  I will never be anything that transcends the nature of Christ, but I would argue that I was created for a purpose that a Jesus clone would not have been suited to.  That begs the question of what exactly it means to be &#8220;like Christ&#8221; and whether there&#8217;s maybe a subset of attributes that leaves alone that unique identity and calling.  </p>
<p>In any case, we will never really <b>be</b> Christ and maybe we aren&#8217;t intended to be.  And in the ways that we are meant to be&#8211;in our righteousness and in our standing before the Father&#8211;He says that we are.</p>
<p>And is the Kingdom itself now are coming?  If both (as I believe), then I&#8217;d say so is our status as &#8220;Christians.&#8221;</p>
<p>Speaking of movement, even if we assume a static Christ, the point of the journey isn&#8217;t merely that we are moving closer to an ideal, but closer in intimacy.  Am I not yet married because my love for my wife is not yet perfected?    </p>
<p>But, again, a lot depends on exactly what we mean by &#8220;Christian.&#8221;  And even if we mean a certain thing, it matters to a great extent what others mean by it to.</p>
<p>Speaking of definitions, let&#8217;s consider &#8220;saved.&#8221;  As I contemplate the ontological realities, I have to conclude that I conclusively <b>have been</b> saved (that is, it&#8217;s a completed act).  That doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean that I&#8217;m not also continuing to be saved.  More importantly (to me, because I think that this is something most Christians miss in our reading of Scripture and in our crafting of systemic theologies), my being saved and having been saved don&#8217;t negate the fact that new crises arise daily (both essential, relational, spiritual ones and less significant, incidental ones) from which I must also be saved; I have been saved, I am being saved and I will repeatedly be saved.  What&#8217;s ironic is that most Evangelical theologies distinguish between salvation and justification (which are generally considered to be accomplished acts) on the one hand and sanctification (which is most often seen as an on-going process, though there are some theologies that view it as an event) on the other; the irony is that it sounds like we might agree that this is problematic and/or arbitrary even though it also sounds like we disagree about the nature of salvation.</p>
<p>And, of course, this raises a ton of other questions too, but I have to stop somewhere. <img src='http://bretttilford.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Zander Leeke</title>
		<link>http://bretttilford.com/2010/01/becoming-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-130</link>
		<dc:creator>Zander Leeke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 04:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bretttilford.com/?p=69#comment-130</guid>
		<description>Why don&#039;t you have any scriptures cited proving your belief?  You mention Paul talking about working out our salvation with fear and trembling, but you never cite the actual verse.  Could you?  We can&#039;t make theological statements based on what we think, we have to use the Bible to prove that it is the truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why don&#8217;t you have any scriptures cited proving your belief?  You mention Paul talking about working out our salvation with fear and trembling, but you never cite the actual verse.  Could you?  We can&#8217;t make theological statements based on what we think, we have to use the Bible to prove that it is the truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Robbie</title>
		<link>http://bretttilford.com/2010/01/becoming-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>Robbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 04:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bretttilford.com/?p=69#comment-127</guid>
		<description>Yeah man totally agree it&#039;s a process just like life!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah man totally agree it&#8217;s a process just like life!</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Davis</title>
		<link>http://bretttilford.com/2010/01/becoming-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 06:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bretttilford.com/?p=69#comment-126</guid>
		<description>I like this a lot, here are my two cents - 

I think it&#039;s important to note that there is a difference between sanctification and justification.

Justification is the change of the believing sinner’s standing (status) before God, declaring him/her accepted, with the guilt and penalty of his/her sins done away with. Sanctification on the other hand is the continual growing in holiness. I would consider anyone who is Justified a Christian, sanctification (and Glorification) come after this justification. Or so Romans would have me believe.

I think think that the term Christian coming from the Greek simply means follower of Christ (His teachings ect.) Which is what I consider myself. Interesting thoughts though. 

Thanks for the thought out article, I enjoyed it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like this a lot, here are my two cents &#8211; </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s important to note that there is a difference between sanctification and justification.</p>
<p>Justification is the change of the believing sinner’s standing (status) before God, declaring him/her accepted, with the guilt and penalty of his/her sins done away with. Sanctification on the other hand is the continual growing in holiness. I would consider anyone who is Justified a Christian, sanctification (and Glorification) come after this justification. Or so Romans would have me believe.</p>
<p>I think think that the term Christian coming from the Greek simply means follower of Christ (His teachings ect.) Which is what I consider myself. Interesting thoughts though. </p>
<p>Thanks for the thought out article, I enjoyed it!</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle Steed</title>
		<link>http://bretttilford.com/2010/01/becoming-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-125</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle Steed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 05:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bretttilford.com/?p=69#comment-125</guid>
		<description>I agree that our lives as &quot;christians&quot; are ones of being transformed and renewed daily. And that our life is a process of working out our salvation. That&#039;s scriptural. But I would also agree that we are called son of god and can stand on that truth now, wherever we are in our walk. Plus I like thinking of myself as a son instead of a christian. There&#039;s less stress that comes with knowing I don&#039;t have to try so hard to get the approval of my Dad who loves me for who I am.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that our lives as &#8220;christians&#8221; are ones of being transformed and renewed daily. And that our life is a process of working out our salvation. That&#8217;s scriptural. But I would also agree that we are called son of god and can stand on that truth now, wherever we are in our walk. Plus I like thinking of myself as a son instead of a christian. There&#8217;s less stress that comes with knowing I don&#8217;t have to try so hard to get the approval of my Dad who loves me for who I am.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://bretttilford.com/2010/01/becoming-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 05:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bretttilford.com/?p=69#comment-123</guid>
		<description>Thanks guys.  Glad you enjoyed it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks guys.  Glad you enjoyed it!</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon</title>
		<link>http://bretttilford.com/2010/01/becoming-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-122</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 00:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bretttilford.com/?p=69#comment-122</guid>
		<description>I really enjoyed that my friend good post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed that my friend good post!</p>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://bretttilford.com/2010/01/becoming-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-119</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 15:24:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bretttilford.com/?p=69#comment-119</guid>
		<description>Totally agree with you, Brett!  I love the word process.  It implies a slower, attainable pace that feels more doable!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Totally agree with you, Brett!  I love the word process.  It implies a slower, attainable pace that feels more doable!</p>
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